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 Post subject: Death of the two stroke?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:03 pm 
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Location: Lake Macquarie
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-29/d ... ws/9885250

This story currently appearing on the ABC website may be the first link in the end of the humble two stroke. Though only aimed at “dirty” engines it may ultimately mean that providing two stroke engines that do comply with emissions requirements will become prohibitively expensive....so you buy a four stroke because it’s cheaper. Note they have a time frame to unload stock so look for bargains coming up over the next year.

I assume the Asian knockoffs will immediately fall into this category. Anybody up on this ?

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Ozzie
Investigator #143 "SPRITZIG II"

The Mariner - “It’s too strange here. It doesn’t move right." ... Enola - “Helen said that it’s only land sickness."
Waterworld (1995)


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 Post subject: Re: Death of the two stroke?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:21 am 
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Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 4:25 pm
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Location: Gold Coast
In my opinion, the ban on 2 strokes is another case of nonsense, follow the leader, legislation. There will likely be little or no significant environmental benefits to offset the additional costs (both financial and environmentally) of manufacturing more complex motors for occasional use applications.

When I bought my Investigator, it came with an old 10hp 4 stroke Honda outboard. I was happy enough with this motor so when it came time to replace it, I looked for a similar model. I needed a 10hp outboard as it also powers my "tinny". When I checked out the current model Honda and other brands, I found that it weighed considerably more than my old one. I didn't want to go heavier as I needed to move the motor between the boats and also because of the weight that hangs off the transom. After some investigation, I ended up purchasing a 15hp Yamaha (it weighs the same as the 10hp model), which was around the weight of my old outboard and considerably cheaper than the equivalent Honda. I bought the Yamaha in 2005. It has proved to be reliable, quiet, clean and efficient. I purchased 4 litres of Yammalube (oil) at the time and still have over a litre left. So, since 2005, at the recommended 100:1 ratio, I have used about 300 litres of fuel in my outboard. I'm sure that I would have gone through much more than 3 litres just changing the oil of a four stroke at the annual services. I don't feel that I have endangered many polar bears with my switch to 2 stoke propulsion.

There is still a legitimate place for the use of modern 2 stroke motors. The high power to weight ratio and lower manufacturing cost is important for many applications, especially outboards and chainsaws. It is a pity that our politicians are more concerned with green votes than logic.

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Ray
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 Post subject: Re: Death of the two stroke?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:33 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:33 am
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Location: Townsville, Qld
Thanks for the info, the article clarified some things about the " 2 stroke ban "

Might still time to pickup a 2 stroke outboard before they all sell out (importing 2 stroke OB's officially stopped as of July 1st)

Heard from a local Yamaha ob dealer 2 strokes better for motor-sailing, ie running while heeled over - 4 strokes don't like running heeled over, could stuff them up. Also lighter to lift and simpler to fix.

On u-tube the Brisbane Yamaha rep, says - dealers can still sell 2 strokes until 1st July 2019 (while their existing stocks last)..after 1/7/19 no new 2 strokes can be sold..Existing 2 strokes won't be banned, parts will still be available, we can hopefully continue enjoying their benefits for as long as existing motors run...(dated oct 2017) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pf-8QPVPdo

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Andrew
Investigator #9 Teria
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 Post subject: Re: Death of the two stroke?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:35 am 
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Location: Lake Macquarie
http://www.environment.gov.au/protectio ... -equipment

Bit more but dated 2016.

I did not realise it applied to basically all two strokes. Although the above notes that “direct injection” two strokes would meet the standard. DI isn’t available for small OBs as far as I know, but as regards to direct injection vs 4 stroke, well it’s still complicated machinery. I owned one of the original 3 cylinder DI Two Stroke Suzuki 4wds in 1975 and many of them suffered bearing failure because apparently aus users ran cheap mixer type oil in the tanks rather than the thinner grade recommended by Suzuki. I sold mine before any issues.

I remember also the outboard mechanoid than serviced my old cruiser’s 140 hp 2st OB said that the VRO (variable ratio oiling) used by one one manufacturer for its big 2st donks was referred to in the trade as Very Rarely Operational :)

So .....looks like four strokes for our grandkids. I’d say one more second hand 2st 5hp merc/mariner will see out my sailing days.

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Ozzie
Investigator #143 "SPRITZIG II"

The Mariner - “It’s too strange here. It doesn’t move right." ... Enola - “Helen said that it’s only land sickness."
Waterworld (1995)


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 Post subject: Re: Death of the two stroke?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:54 am 
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Location: Lake Macquarie
I was going to mention this after I got back from my last cruise but it might be more relevant now. When in Vanuatu I’ve always noticed that most locals use Yamaha 4strokes, in the case of these water taxis in Villa the 30hp . It was the same on our inland river trip in Fiji, with almost every long boat having 30 or 40 Yamis . Given these dudes do this for a living I guess that is a pretty good recommendation and comment on reliability. Amazing thing about the river boats in Fiji was the chunks missing from the props and skegs due to navigating the often shallow rapids inland but the Yamis just kept going. Occasionally there is the odd Merc but little else.
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These boats challenge my very limited knowledge of boat design. They are heavy wooden displacement hulls but go like the clappers with a shipload of overfed senior citz on board.

May have to trade the merc for a Yamaha after all at least for my tinnie.

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Ozzie
Investigator #143 "SPRITZIG II"

The Mariner - “It’s too strange here. It doesn’t move right." ... Enola - “Helen said that it’s only land sickness."
Waterworld (1995)


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 Post subject: Re: Death of the two stroke?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:29 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:33 am
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Location: Townsville, Qld
The beginning of the end has begun

Today i searched / phoned most of the Yamaha dealerships in North Qld (Bowen to Cairns) and Brisbane Yamaha, for a new 4HP 2stroke longshaft (they have an internal tank plus external fuel line, FNR gears, twist throttle) ...All sold out of the model i'm interested in. (I want 4hp so the boat could sail un-registered.)

The Tully dealer said there was a 2 stroke sale rush on starting 3 months ago.
Another said there was no way he would risk being stuck with any new 2 stroke stock by Jul2019, (they would have to destroy them.! and loose all the money they spent on buying it in) My opinion is - The government should have simply had an import ban date and no sales ban date,(with a max quota per dealer?) when they all eventually sold out in their own time..then no dealers wouldn't have got cold feet like they all seem to have.

I explained the need for TS's to motor-sail at times of light winds (heel while running engine), one dealer said he will bring it up at the dealers meeting,,(so a small TS product may be designed in future.)

There are very few longshaft 2 strokes of any HP left for sale (guess it was the niche market)...short shafts more common but many of the portable models 15-2hp were sold out already at the 2 yamaha ob dealerships in Townsville.

One tsv yamy ob dealer said that most people tend to hang onto small portables for life, hardly ever trade them in , and few secondhand..at least in this regional area.

As a last resort i've emailed Yamaha Australia, if they can guide me to a new 4LMHA motor --anywhere..

(They nearly all have 4 stroke 4hp LS in stock..Question, would these ever suffice on an Investigator? )

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Andrew
Investigator #9 Teria
Townsville


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 Post subject: Re: Death of the two stroke?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:57 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 7:10 pm
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Location: Sydney
Andrew, I think 4hp is enough. My 6hp never gets up more than just off start setting. The 2.3hp was adequate for calm sea and 15 knots breeze. I would have gone 5hp but the extra long shaft Sailpro was only in 6.
I am happy with 4 stroke. No problems with stale fuel and oiled plugs. Idles happily without me worrying that it is going to cut out.

I think that for infrequent users 4 stroke is great. 2 stroke is good for those who use their motors regularly

If you are motor sailing and the heal angle is enough to worry the motor, you have enough wind to sail, or you can reef if it is a case of trying to get closer to the wind in heavy conditions.

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Ian B
Investigator 563 #50 Yara
Save CO2- go sailing!


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 Post subject: Re: Death of the two stroke?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:10 pm 
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The whole thing stinks Andrew I must have missed the lead up to this, as I didn’t realise that it was so far reaching. An import ban date would have made far more sense. After 42 years in public service I’d bet liaison with public and industry was minimal, token or ignored and the closest anyone who made the policy has come to a boat was when they were five in the bath. :evil:

Nobody supports pollution but sensible phasing out should have been included in the changes.

Perhaps the most affected by this will be remote areas where the simplicity of two strokes allows for easier or self service. I have never owned a 4 stroke OB but I assume running costs are ultimately more expensive as well.

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Ozzie
Investigator #143 "SPRITZIG II"

The Mariner - “It’s too strange here. It doesn’t move right." ... Enola - “Helen said that it’s only land sickness."
Waterworld (1995)


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 Post subject: Re: Death of the two stroke?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:56 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:33 am
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Location: Townsville, Qld
It caught me by surprise too, there wasn't that much media fanfare about it or the consequences in the lead up. Totally agree a better phasing out should have happened..it seems like yamaha have already washed their hands of 2 strokes.

I phoned the local Tohatsu sale rep ( an outboard mechanic) about small portable toey 3.5, 4, 5 and 6 Longshaft 2strokes. He can order one in within 4 days, so they have a central stock somewhere and a totally different attitude to Yamahas management going into the "final year". (the govt also urged manufacturers/retailers to not stock up too much..(insert word of choice here) I heard they are good motors and seem to have a fair bit of corrosion protection. downloaded all the data specs. They are a bit cheaper than yamaha 2st comparable motors.

Deciding between a Tohatsu M4C (4hp) 1cyl, 102cc) which only has an integral 2.5L tank (but falls under the boat rego req) or a M5BD (5Hp) it seems identical engine but has a 12L external tank too (but keep paying boat rego) LS weighs 20.5 - 21kg for these motors. The 5hp has an ULS (very long shaft option) The prop pitch range is 6"-9" - (which pitch to choose for a heavily laden investigator?). the Hp difference must be in the carby. both have FNR lever gears, twist throttle, thru prop exhaust and 180 deg swivel for turning on a dime. (these are within my adequate power/ lifting weight range.. The ageing 10hp Johnson weighs over 35kgs and is becoming more than a handful to lift about)

Ian, even tho i love the idea of 4-strokes (and 4hp) (quiet non-polluting fuel efficient and it's a persuasive case - feels like sitting on some kind of invisible fence with a clock ticking), but it must be the way i sail and motor-sail here when its about 3-7 knots wind which is common here, a kind of "grey zone" between fully motoring and fully sailing. always on a schedule to get back to base (as not retired yet), so like keeping her at 4-5 knots hull speed on return leg. The return to base on time rule, also means i might have to motor for many hours non-stop back to a ramp (already sounds like the external tank/long range model is better)

NB the Toey 3.5hp is a 13kg light weight, (1cyl 76cc) only a 1.4L integral tank and 360 swivel reverse.
NB: The 6Hp is 2cyl, 169cc weighs a heftier 27kg its a fair step up and not far off my existing motor.


anyway, happy sailing (or upgrading etc) on the school holidays,

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Andrew
Investigator #9 Teria
Townsville


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 Post subject: Re: Death of the two stroke?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 1:07 pm
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Location: Lake Macquarie
I think 20 kg or close is nearly about the max for an outboard you have to lift. It’s not the deadlift weight that’s the issue it’s the twisting, human crane acts for placement etc that often brings people undone with such things as outboards. The human spine is an incredibly complicated mechanism. It’s not surprising that back problems are listed among the ten major illnesses suffered by adult Australians, right up there with cancer, heart diseases and diabetes. No crepe, look it up.

I long ago deleted all lawn from my home other than the small footpath and gradually switched to all electric garden tools including my mower mainly due to back issues, so the general two stroke ban won’t effect me but a four stroke brush cutter or chainsaw must start to jack the weight up a fair bit for the frequent user.

I’ve modified Spritzig II for easier use of my outboard last year. I’ve recently harvested the pics off my camera I’ll do a post directly.

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Ozzie
Investigator #143 "SPRITZIG II"

The Mariner - “It’s too strange here. It doesn’t move right." ... Enola - “Helen said that it’s only land sickness."
Waterworld (1995)


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